Que pensez-vous de la culture soninké ? A-t-elle un avenir ?

[sajokuumba Kamara]

Quote tu pensait que j'étais bête


Nas,

Sooninkon taalin ti: "Ganngen koyi a tuwaanan nga". O su ra nta ku maxankutuyu faamunu. Faamuyen nan xoto. O xooxonu da kille n ya wara na arabunun kille n wutu. Koota wa riini, Sooninkon xa wa arubunun kille n warana na kille kurunba tana wutu. Bireye ni yillaye ya. Sooninkaaxu kara baawo o nta yillene saasa.

Nawaari ti golle siri n nga. A n wa faamuyen killen kanma. Toxo non.

[Fodyé Cissé]

J'ai suivi les discussion depuis le commencement. Comme je n'ecris pas la langue francaise tres bien et aussi mon clavier est anglais, je vais essayer de sumettre quelqueles mots en anglais. Un "marenmen" peut traduire ca en francais pour nous tous. Merci en advance.

N Marenmun, Sooninkon, I am writing this in English so that we can internationalize this discussion and bring in more people. The matter of culture is extremely important. Mande culture, of which Sooninke culture is a part, is extremely important for West Africa's Sahel Region. The Mande culture is the culture of Sahel West Africa. It is now a dead culture and the cause of its death is clear to us all if only we are willing to observe and live with the Truth.

Arab culture and Arab religion are some of the more important of the many and diverse causes of the death of a once valiant and a once dynamic culture even with its cast social bases. Our near Ancestors converted to Islam and therefore Arab culture and became more Arab than the Arabs. Muhammad gave them the tool to liberate themselves and recover their lost religion but they did not see it because they did not want to see it. The African needed only the "LA illa, in lalla la." As you will notice this is where I have stopped for once we continue and state that "Muhamma-dara-sur-illlah, you destroy any chances of continual generational renewal. Muhammad is the Law. We do not need this law; it is for the hard-hearted Arab. We need direct access to God. We need to meet God using our own language not via a foreign language.

This is very important. If it is true that the Sooninkon ventured west from Kemet, Ta Mery, (Ancient Egypt), then we lost the knowledge that was the foundation of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Moshe-Moses-Musa was our Ancestor and what he originally taught the Hebrews is not what has been faithfully transmitted. The point is that the Sooninkon, who we descended from, also had the same knowledge. Like the Hebrews, we lost the original. This original, fundamental knowledge is the bases for all sound cultures. We have to rediscover this profound knowledge and link up with the Divine Powers to re-establish our own direct relationship with God.

There is no reality but the reality of God-La-illa, illal-la. This is its true meaning. With this you can seek your way to the original. "An du tu". Is there a Sooninke whose divine mother has not told him or her this ageless, timeless, most spiritual advice? True religion is about "An Du TU." We lost this and sought name, fame, social status, wealth, power., etc., etc.,...

So, we now see the true cause of the death of the Mande culture, which is Kemet culture, Ancient Egyptian culture. If we do not put aside Arabism under the rubric of Islam and being a muslim, the Mande culture will vanish from the surface of the earth.

The second important reason for the death of the Mande culture is the cast system. All the peoples of the world who have advanced to meet the challenges of Life and living in the modern era have done away with the cast system. The Mande world and the West African ethnic groups who have copied this cast system are being run by ancient elites who have lost their privileges to rule because they could not meet the challenges of Life and living adequately. They failed because they have adopted Arab culture; they have failed because the Europeans rule the African continent; they have failed because they could not implement an educational system that could free the minds of the young so that they can adequately face the challenges of Life and living. They have failed because the people who were once the most urbanized of the human race, the Mande peoples, have now become villagers ruled by a small narrow "debegumun" (villae heads) who live in the seventh century instead of the twentieth century. We have descended from been dwellers of large urban centers with a central government to disparate villages run by people who care only for their privileges and not the well being of the whole people.

Check this village mentality among the Sooninkos the world over. How many rich Sooninke is heading a modern company employing one thousand people? Yet, they are among some of the richest people in West Africa. But their wealth serves only themselves and their families. This is what I call the village mentality. The elites of each Sooninke village zealously guard their privileges and care little about the kind of mass education that the Japanese nation put in place to meet the challenges of Western expansion around 1884, if I am not mistaken. The village elite run away from centralization because they fear for their privileges and their ranks.

Sooninkaaxun was powerful only when we had a well administered centralized system of governance. It is all Mande culture, with the Sooninkon playing the vital role in business, administration, and all facets of culture during the Wagadu era to the Mali era to the Songhai era down to the small kingdoms era up to the ascendance of the Europeans.

You are in France because no one will fight to bring about a new culture. We run away rather than fight for change at home. I am writing this little contribution in California, USA, not Kombo Gunjuru, the Gambia, where I was reared. I am not writing this in Bakel, or Gidemagha, or Bundu or Fuuta or in Kayes. This is because, like my father before me who deserted the Sooninke world first, I see nothing progressive in the Afrikan world today. However after decades of long and hard studies, I am heading back to do what I am empowered to do, to change the mentality of the people via Right Education. This is the way out-Right Education. The people of the African Diaspora who return to provide this Right Education are the salvation of the continent not monthly transfers of money from abroad. These monies are like poison. They deny the villagers the skills to live dynamically and vibrantly. These monies are a curse and not a blessing. We are now raising a generation of young ones who will not develop any Life skills in their own environment.

Therefore, may I stop here for now with these cautionary words. There is no living Sooninke culture or for that matter Mande culture. We have to create a new one. We can do this successfully only when we are rightly educated and are totally and absolutely FREE. First Freedom through Right Education and then this new culture will germinate organically. This is the promise of the DAUSI, isn't it? A NEW AWAKENING! A NEW CULTURE! A New Society! A New Civilization! The question is our individual responsibility towards this renaissance.

O N Bire Jammu do Xeeri! Ma ta tana. http://www.soninkara.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hi sajokuumba Kamara,
I, personally, do not agree with lots of your assertions here.

You are saying that “Arab culture and Arab religion are some of the most important of the many and diverse causes of the death of ” our culture…., that, “Our near Ancestors converted to Islam and therefore Arab culture and became more Arab than the Arabs.”
I really do not agree with this sentence.

First of all, the Soninke people (I prefer, rather than the Mande people) are not the only people who converted to Islam. Across the five continents around the world, you will find thousands of other ethnic groups and people who also converted to Islam without denying themselves, without repudiating their ancestors traditions and culture. So are the Soninke.

Because, remember, the Soninke people are one of the earliest people who converted to Islam, assuming that the Wagadu empire started at the 5th century AD and that the conversion took place before the dislocation of the Ghana empire.

From that time to the 19th, up to the 20th century AD, the Soninke people have been transmitting their culture from generation to generation.
They are good Muslims, but the aren’t Arabs. They have been practicing Islam during centuries, but they never denied their culture for the Arab culture.
What about colonisation? What is the impact of the European Civilization and now the Globalization on the Soninke culture? I think we should ask ourselves these questions to find out the main reasons which are causing the death of the Soninke culture.

The second point is about what you call “the cast system”. Again, here, you are building your theory based on “the Arab culture”, because, you said “They (The Mande world and the West African ethnic groups) failed because they have adopted Arab culture.” Again, I am obliged to say again that they did not adopt the Arab culture. They just converted to Islam.

You said further that “they have failed because the Europeans rule the African continent; they have failed because they could not implement an educational system that could free the minds of the young so that they can adequately face the challenges of Life and living.”. This is true. But, I am not sure I have understood what you meant here. Because, for me, an ethnic group can preserve its culture, transmitting it from generation to generation, without implementing an educational system, sophisticated as some European people. If you go to Amazon, you will find lots of ethnic groups who preserved their culture and who never had a contact with modern civilization. On the contrary, it is modern civilization that is currently killing these cultures.

If all the historians agree that the Wagadu empire was one of the powerful and strongest black empire (Kwame Nkrumah gave the name of this symbolic empire to his country – Gold Coast), I have no doubt that the same people still have all the capabilities to reorganize themselves in order to build a new stronger empire. But slavery and colonisation annihilated all these possibilities. For further development of this theory, I suggest you this book : ” The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks. Author : Randall Robinson”.

These were just some thoughts I wanted to share with you.
Regards.

[idipro]

Salama "Mr Kamara Molle"

Did you have green beans, white beans first? cause Kamara's don't mess with molle.

Now to the debate...

Mr. Idipro and all participants,

By future, I mean being a French citizen with all the rights, privileges and duties that citizenship places on you. By citizenship, I mean the right to participate fully, adroitly, and legally in the social, political, economic, cultural, and intellectual life of the country where you are a citizen by birth or by the legal processes legislated by the state.

Doesn't that apply to senegalese, malian, gambian and mauritanian people??
I think so, and you know what, back in those countries, citizens with all rights are being treated badly than those french/black/soninke citizens living in France. You probably will tell me that all the bad things happening in Africa is the result of the west side, but one thing you need to know is that if we soninko or black or whatever you wanna name them, do not do our duty, then ain't no way that we as soninke will get what we want.
If we want our future to be bright enought, then we need to think about ourselves first, think about how we see life, think about how we see our future, think about what we can do to fulfil our needs, including giving a good education to our kids, but also a good education to ourself.

To further define this term future, we have to look at it via three lenses-one lens is that of the first generation immigrants, the other is the lens of the generations that issue from the presence of the first generation onward and the third is that of the dominant society. Failure in Africa is the principal reason why there is a massive immigration to France and her sister countries in Europe. How many are legal residents? How many are citizens? How many have received technical and professional training? How many are living in decent houses, decent apartments, in short, decent residences? How many can return home to engage in decent work that can promise them prosperity? When worse comes to worst, what are the chances that the French authorities will tolerate them and let them stay to benefit from social welfare?

Again, we black or soninke should not take the past as a weapon or a motivation to fight the western government, we should take the past/history as a lesson, and think about using it the good way.
It's true that part of the reasons of the failure in Africa is from the west side, but the majority of the failure in Africa is because of ourselves, as we black don't like seing the success of other brothers blacks, and in the soninke community most of the time that's what you see, people from the same family doing dark magic to each other because of jealousy. How can we succeed if these things are happening? how can we succeed if whenever someone is at the head of the state, he first will think on filling his pocket? and after we say that it's because of the west?
Let's take the case of us soninke, most of the soninke coming in france don't have a qualification so the first thing they will think about is trying to work(going to the temp agencies), get money, and then when time passes you will end up with a big family with you, you don't have any education, you don't know what your kids are doing or studying at school/college/university, you are letting your kids to hang around with anybody/everybody, ... how can you be sure in that way that you will do something for your community, your culture? most of the time your kids don't even speak your language, nor understand your beautiful culture.

Now look at the second generation onward. They are born in France, so they are naturally French citizens by right of birth according to French law if I have understood what I have read. Now my friends, how many of these young immigrant children will do well in school to learn enough of the French culture and society to excel in it? These are generations caught in the middle, between their African parents' cultures and the larger French society. By future, I also mean social, political, and economic integration. How many of the children issuing from immigrant marriages will learn enough, know enough to push their way and be fully integrated in French society? Is integration what they really want? Or do they wish for a a separate culture, a separate society within the larger French society, that is, a society within a society? Will the larger dominant society agree to this arrangement?

Sorry to tell you this,but at least 40% of the generation you're talking about have illiterate parents, and the parents don't sometimes know where their kids are hanging around. Most of them choose to sell drugs instead of going to school or trying to get a qualification. How do you want those people to be integrated in the society if they are behaving badly??

As you see, I am trying to develop a case for full integration in French Society either as a minority culture and society (but a minority group that is in harmony with the larger French society because it knows it very well and is respectful of its mores as the larger society is aware of the immigrant society's mores and is also equally respectful of them) or as a fully integrated minority group that is fully assimilated.

Is there a future for a fully integrated minority group in a France and by extension a Europe that no longer needs its colonial dependents? Will the French co-exist with a different people with strange cultures like polygamy when the economic condition which made their presence tolerable is no longer there?

Do you think that polygamy is a culture??do you think that polygamy is strange?? what is prostitution then, is it a culture??is it something strange??is cheating your wife a culture??is it something strange?? Well in this europe or western side,you won't see a government trying to put in jail someone who has a mistress, isn't that a type of hidden polygamy?? that is indeed a strange thing!!!
It's time for black people, african, soninke to wake up and stand up for their rights from their roots first, before doing it in europe, in that case you will see results.

In short, the real question is will France remain home for the descendants of immigrants from the colonies when such people are longer needed and they are by and large a drain on the national coffers?

Now can you see future as a meaning a home for the descendants of the immigrants no matter what happens to the European economy? Take home in its broadest sense: citizenship with inviolable rights, duties, privileges, and a deep sense of ease and a sense of security.

I have spent some four years in Europe with a stretch of time in France before heading to the USA. I have studied this question closely in the USA. Here too, it is assimilation into the larger White American society or separate and inferior existence at the fringes of society. In my mind, the problem is not different in France. The descendants of immigrants face a similar problem-integration or marginalization. Political activism in the USA led to a certain degree of tolerance for integration for those who have met the conditions to join White Middle Society. My observation is that this is not where you will find the majority of the descendants of the our Black cousins. It is not different in France when I was there. The bright and talented ones always escape. And the rest? Aren't they citizens by law? Isn't this law not made by Man? If so, can't Man repeal the law that has made you a citizen and drive you out? Isn't this the far right's political agenda?

Think on this?

Yes indeed, I can see FUTURE for the immigrants and the descendants of immigrants living in France. Probably not for every single one, but definitely for lots of them.
I don't agree with you when you said that France is similar to the states.
Let me tell ya this, america abolished slavery well before the french, black people live better in america than in france, in the states you see black people with very very good jobs, whilst in france its rare to see that. In UK same again, you will see a black being at the head of a bank, the university I went in London have a Black President, and it's not like a second class university. In France you will see less black people with such jobs or roles, why the black people don't fight for it, instead of doing sports or music (is it what we are good for??)

Quote tu pensait que j'étais bête


Nas,

Sooninkon taalin ti: "Ganngen koyi a tuwaanan nga". O su ra nta ku maxankutuyu faamunu. Faamuyen nan xoto. O xooxonu da kille n ya wara na arabunun kille n wutu. Koota wa riini, Sooninkon xa wa arubunun kille n warana na kille kurunba tana wutu. Bireye ni yillaye ya. Sooninkaaxu kara baawo o nta yillene saasa.

Nawaari ti golle siri n nga. A n wa faamuyen killen kanma. Toxo non.

mii foofo fanmu anke digame key how come O xooxonu nda arabu kille ya wutu

wa salam!

[lamezo]

Hi sajokuumba Kamara,
I, personally, do not agree with lots of your assertions here.

You are saying that “Arab culture and Arab religion are some of the most important of the many and diverse causes of the death of ” our culture…., that, “Our near Ancestors converted to Islam and therefore Arab culture and became more Arab than the Arabs.”
I really do not agree with this sentence.

First of all, the Soninke people (I prefer, rather than the Mande people) are not the only people who converted to Islam. Across the five continents around the world, you will find thousands of other ethnic groups and people who also converted to Islam without denying themselves, without repudiating their ancestors traditions and culture. So are the Soninke.

Because, remember, the Soninke people are one of the earliest people who converted to Islam, assuming that the Wagadu empire started at the 5th century AD and that the conversion took place before the dislocation of the Ghana empire.

From that time to the 19th, up to the 20th century AD, the Soninke people have been transmitting their culture from generation to generation.
They are good Muslims, but the aren’t Arabs. They have been practicing Islam during centuries, but they never denied their culture for the Arab culture.
What about colonisation? What is the impact of the European Civilization and now the Globalization on the Soninke culture? I think we should ask ourselves these questions to find out the main reasons which are causing the death of the Soninke culture.

The second point is about what you call “the cast system”. Again, here, you are building your theory based on “the Arab culture”, because, you said “They (The Mande world and the West African ethnic groups) failed because they have adopted Arab culture.” Again, I am obliged to say again that they did not adopt the Arab culture. They just converted to Islam.

You said further that “they have failed because the Europeans rule the African continent; they have failed because they could not implement an educational system that could free the minds of the young so that they can adequately face the challenges of Life and living.”. This is true. But, I am not sure I have understood what you meant here. Because, for me, an ethnic group can preserve its culture, transmitting it from generation to generation, without implementing an educational system, sophisticated as some European people. If you go to Amazon, you will find lots of ethnic groups who preserved their culture and who never had a contact with modern civilization. On the contrary, it is modern civilization that is currently killing these cultures.

If all the historians agree that the Wagadu empire was one of the powerful and strongest black empire (Kwame Nkrumah gave the name of this symbolic empire to his country – Gold Coast), I have not doubt that the same people still have all the capabilities to reorganize themselves in order to build a new stronger empire. But slavery and colonisation annihilated all these possibilities. For further development of this theory, I suggest you this book : ” The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks. Author : Randall Robinson”.

These were just some thoughts I wanted to share with you.
Regards.

I perfectly agree with you. I think our friend has tried to explain the condition of the soninkes by making a comparison between the US and France which is an error.
In my mind a large part of the soninkos are perfectly integrated in the French society and economically speaking. However it's clear that when you analyze the chaim of the French elite you will see any black or people having an African background.
I don't know if our friend is awared that in France we have a parallele system which enable the elite to reproduce themseves (endogamy) (the system of the Grande Ecole is an exemple of this phenomenon.

To finish your (sajokuumba Kamara )speech turn around afrocentrisim, which not enable people to take to good way. The question of the african ethnic is not a figth beteween black and white.

salam

[makalou]

I am so surprised of English level's in this thread...

Ouaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh ! Makalou is out of game...
C'est sur que c'est pas ISS ou Roumbalove qui viendront vous lire...
Au passage, Nas, en faisant allusion à " Il est pas bète Nas " c'est juste une expression... C'est pour rigoler vu que nous avons eu quelques divergences de points de vue donc c'est pour te titiller un peu.
Rien de méchant. Jamais j'ai pensé une seconde à Google traduction...

Tkt, en tout cas je ne suis pas là... pour jouer au " Profiler " l'ami...
Good Night ! See you tomorrow... Sorry, my english is not very fluent like Mister Camara English.

C'est une très bonne chose de mixer un peu les langues... Merci Monsieur Camara, même si c'est votre langue maternelle.

[sajokuumba Kamara]

Hi sajokuumba Kamara,
I, personally, do not agree with lots of your assertions here.

You are saying that “Arab culture and Arab religion are some of the most important of the many and diverse causes of the death of ” our culture…., that, “Our near Ancestors converted to Islam and therefore Arab culture and became more Arab than the Arabs.”
I really do not agree with this sentence.

First of all, the Soninke people (I prefer, rather than the Mande people) are not the only people who converted to Islam. Across the five continents around the world, you will find thousands of other ethnic groups and people who also converted to Islam without denying themselves, without repudiating their ancestors traditions and culture. So are the Soninke.

Because, remember, the Soninke people are one of the earliest people who converted to Islam, assuming that the Wagadu empire started at the 5th century AD and that the conversion took place before the dislocation of the Ghana empire.

From that time to the 19th, up to the 20th century AD, the Soninke people have been transmitting their culture from generation to generation.
They are good Muslims, but the aren’t Arabs. They have been practicing Islam during centuries, but they never denied their culture for the Arab culture.
What about colonisation? What is the impact of the European Civilization and now the Globalization on the Soninke culture? I think we should ask ourselves these questions to find out the main reasons which are causing the death of the Soninke culture.

The second point is about what you call “the cast system”. Again, here, you are building your theory based on “the Arab culture”, because, you said “They (The Mande world and the West African ethnic groups) failed because they have adopted Arab culture.” Again, I am obliged to say again that they did not adopt the Arab culture. They just converted to Islam.

You said further that “they have failed because the Europeans rule the African continent; they have failed because they could not implement an educational system that could free the minds of the young so that they can adequately face the challenges of Life and living.”. This is true. But, I am not sure I have understood what you meant here. Because, for me, an ethnic group can preserve its culture, transmitting it from generation to generation, without implementing an educational system, sophisticated as some European people. If you go to Amazon, you will find lots of ethnic groups who preserved their culture and who never had a contact with modern civilization. On the contrary, it is modern civilization that is currently killing these cultures.

If all the historians agree that the Wagadu empire was one of the powerful and strongest black empire (Kwame Nkrumah gave the name of this symbolic empire to his country – Gold Coast), I have not doubt that the same people still have all the capabilities to reorganize themselves in order to build a new stronger empire. But slavery and colonisation annihilated all these possibilities. For further development of this theory, I suggest you this book : ” The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks. Author : Randall Robinson”.

These were just some thoughts I wanted to share with you.
Regards.

Brother Cisse,

It is lovely to have a dialogue with intelligent people even if we do not always agree. Thanks for the sharing. It is the process that matters, the dialogue. So long as we do not hold unbending attitudes to the subject matter, we might end up enlightening ourselves. Further, if I might add, it is not about agreeing with each other; rather it is more about shedding light on an important subject. You, indeed, have shed some light on the subject.

But before I continue the dialogue, I would like to personally thank you for the great work you have done to build this website along with the Waounde one among others. I am extremely happy that we can communicate with each other through your wonderful initiatives. My deepest gratitude to you and the those working with you.

Now my central thesis holds that "Arabism" is largely responsible for the demise of Sooninkaaxu. Your points about the range and extent of Islam are well taken. Now Brother Cisse, can you point out to me a single progressive Islamic country in the world? If you can, you first want to remind us of Malaysia. There, my good brother, the Chinese diaspora is behind that country's success.

The point for us to consider is the impact of not the five principal faratas of Islam but the shar'ia and the hadiths. It is my contention that the five faratas in and of themselves do not constitute the problem but the law of god that is not replaceable. Herein lies the culture. Modern jurisprudence has long since surpassed this "god" given attempt to move the Arabs from backwardness to some degree of civilization. This they attained and for a few centuries, theirs were the great centers of learning. Greek and Roman knowledge met with desert curiosity and there was a spark.The nomadic Arab met with Persian and Indian high cultures and there was again a spark. Arabs enter the Valley of the Gods, Kemet-Egypt, and a new Meditation was born. Taking from all these former centers of learning and science and meditation, the arab culture flowered. The Sufis were the real heroes of this transformation along with a few enlightened caliphs. Then the lights went out. The compendium of human knowledge gathered by the Arabs became the basis of the European struggle against another more ancient religion-Roman Catholicism.

Brother Cisse, the point I am making is that unless the Sharia is set aside and the hadiths are put in proper perspective, we are in a stagnant pool. The Sharia is the basis of the new Arab culture and therefore Islam. What progress there was could be attributed to new wealth gathered through the jihads and other conquests and the investment of these spoils which added to the glitter of the Arab culture. The Sufis carried the culture to its glory and in the process many were murdered.

If you convert to Islam, you invariably convert to Arab culture for Islam is the five faratas, the sharia as given in the Quran and the hadiths which tantamount to unwritten law. The first farata, as I have stated, is not a problem. To me it is the release from idolary for the Sooninko who wanted to respond to this vital reminder. Brother Cisse, and other readers, please sit with this and consider it in depth. Can you distinguish Arab culture from the Arab religion, which is Islam for the religion is the very basis of the culture? Please think on this. This is extremely important to understand.

It appears as if you might have by-passed my rectifications to Brother NAS' translation. When I talk of Mande, I do not mean Mandingo-the people or Mandinga-the language. I am referring to an ancient philosophy, the remnants of a body of very profound knowledge that our ancestors retained when they left Ancient Egypt. It has suffered much, but it was still potent. This Mande pervades all the related peoples, the bulk of which is within the Mandingo/Banmana group. There could be more Cisse Mandingos than Cisse Sooninko. We are one, the combination of the Kagoro/Sooninko groups. My theory is that the Kagoros left Ancient Egypt first and then they were followed much later by those from Sooni-present day Aswan, Egypt. In order words, Mande is what was left of the profound knowledge that we once possessed. Settling in the Sahel cost us a lot.

The culture did not prepare us to adequately meet the Europeans when they arrived. Your points are well taken,; they are germane to the dialogue. Now my question is this: is it Sooninke culture that prevented our fathers from sending our sisters to school or is it our understanding of Islam that is actually behind it? Haven't the Islamic sharia and Islamic jurisprudence robbed our mothers and sisters of their once powerful positions in society? What happened to the Sooninke matriarchy when we converted to Islam to use your words? Please think on this. It is very important for young Sooninko to consider what culture is. The basis of all high culture is either a grand philosophy or a religion, mostly, if not always, it is religion. This is why I focus on our understanding of religion and Islam in particular.

I am engaged, like you, in the belief that we are indeed capable of re-uniting. I think all out dialogues are attempts to discover the bases for this new unity. We are all together in this consciously or not. This is why I joined this particular dialogue. It is about our culture; it is this that allows us to develop a world view; it is this culture that determines the way we see Life and the way we live. To come upon the new, we have to be free.

Let us all continue this dialogue and those who can translate, let them please do so. I read French moderately well. but I prefer to write in English as I am more fluent in this language as you are Brother Cisse and also Brother NAS and some others. Those of you from Mali, Senegal, Mauritania do better with English than those of us from the Gambia do with the French language. But that should not be a barrier. As more people come upon English and French on this website, its appeal will broaden for language will not be a barrier.

We have work to do. We have to discover the basis for a new Sooninke Culture and I see that you and some of the other brothers and sisters are already on it. I have read a lot of the past forums among the many and varied postings of the website which I used to gauge the level of seriousness of the dialogues. Let us continue inquiring in the same spirit. Agreement is not always necessary; the important thing is brilliant light being shed on the subject.

With much love to you Brother Cisse and Nas and those contributing to this vital dialogue.

[idipro]

Salama dear brother!

Now my central thesis holds that "Arabism" is largely responsible for the demise of Sooninkaaxu. Your points about the range and extent of Islam are well taken. Now Brother Cisse, can you point out to me a single progressive Islamic country in the world? If you can, you first want to remind us of Malaysia. There, my good brother, the Chinese diaspora is behind that country's success.

I totally disagree with you my dear brother. Islam is not at all responsible for the demise's of Soninkaaxu.
I don't know how much of those programs you watch in the states, but the american are people who most of the time talk about progressive Islam. If you remember, in march 2005 in the states, a woman named Amina Wadud led 50men and 50 women in a prayer, with lots of cameras, media coverage and cops. Talking about Islam progressive...C'mon tell'em to give us a break, every one can criticise Islam, and nowadays everyone is doing so.
Would you rather follow what that so call "human right" or equality between men and women?? Allah has prescribed everything in a good manner and only Allah knows why He has done so. Therefore the sunna and the Quran are true thing that we should follow, we human have a bad habit, and tend to change everything for the sake of that so called human rights, progressive Islam and all those things.

Brother Cisse, the point I am making is that unless the Sharia is set aside and the hadiths are put in proper perspective, we are in a stagnant pool. The Sharia is the basis of the new Arab culture and therefore Islam. What progress there was could be attributed to new wealth gathered through the jihads and other conquests and the investment of these spoils which added to the glitter of the Arab culture. The Sufis carried the culture to its glory and in the process many were murdered.

Sharia is the basis of the new arab culture and therefore Islam what are you talking about I think you need to understand first what is sharia, what is arab culture and see the difference. what you are saying here, im sorry but it doesn't have any sense. What do you call new arab, and who do you call arabs??
I thought you were talking about soninke but this is having legs anywere and it doesn't look like cristal to me.

If you convert to Islam, you invariably convert to Arab culture for Islam is the five faratas, the sharia as given in the Quran and the hadiths which tantamount to unwritten law. The first farata, as I have stated, is not a problem. To me it is the release from idolary for the Sooninko who wanted to respond to this vital reminder. Brother Cisse, and other readers, please sit with this and consider it in depth. Can you distinguish Arab culture from the Arab religion, which is Islam for the religion is the very basis of the culture? Please think on this. This is extremely important to understand.

Again I don't agree with you, converting to Islam does not mean converting to Arab culture. Does that mean all the senegalese christians who convert to Islam are converting to arab culture come on bruv! Islam is not the arab religion, when Allah sent Jesus, HE sent him to the 'banni Israel' , when Allah sent Mohammed sallalahu aleyhi wa sallam, HE sent him to the entire world, so stop saying that Islam is the arab religion please.

The culture did not prepare us to adequately meet the Europeans when they arrived. Your points are well taken,; they are germane to the dialogue. Now my question is this: is it Sooninke culture that prevented our fathers from sending our sisters to school or is it our understanding of Islam that is actually behind it? Haven't the Islamic sharia and Islamic jurisprudence robbed our mothers and sisters of their once powerful positions in society? What happened to the Sooninke matriarchy when we converted to Islam to use your words? Please think on this. It is very important for young Sooninko to consider what culture is. The basis of all high culture is either a grand philosophy or a religion, mostly, if not always, it is religion. This is why I focus on our understanding of religion and Islam in particular.

I think you need to understand some basic things my dear brother, you need to learn Islam and understand some basics, because what you are saying has no sense if I may say without disrespecting ya! You need to stop talking about Islam this way my dear brover.
Remember these verses from the Holy Quran:
Chapter16 verse78 : And Allah brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers knowing nothing , and gave you hearing and sight and hearts that haply ye might give thanks .
chapter23 verse78 : He it is Who hath created for you ears and eyes and hearts . Small thanks give ye!
chapter67 verse23 : Say ( unto them , O Muhammad ) : He it is Who gave you being , and hath assigned unto you ears and eyes and hearts . Small thanks give ye!

These are just reminders for you my dear brother.

We have work to do. We have to discover the basis for a new Sooninke Culture and I see that you and some of the other brothers and sisters are already on it. I have read a lot of the past forums among the many and varied postings of the website which I used to gauge the level of seriousness of the dialogues. Let us continue inquiring in the same spirit. Agreement is not always necessary; the important thing is brilliant light being shed on the subject.

It's not about a new soninke culture, it's about teaching our culture to our childrens, it's about passing and showing to others how beautiful our culture is. It is the same culture that our ancestors, grand parents and parents have showed us, we just need to enhance it and show it to the world.

You take good care of urself, wasalam.

[sajokuumba Kamara]

cellon moi la complexiter de notre culture la fragilise et la rend difficile d'accès la culture soninké a touts les mals du monde a souvrire au nouveau monde et meme a s'adapter a celui ci et l'histoire nous a longment apprie que celui qui ne pe s'adapter au changement du monde disparai
j'attend vos point de vue a ce sujet

My Brothers all, Idipro, Cisse, Nas, Lamezo and all other participants,

I know my thesis is rather provocative but it is not meant to be an attack on Islam; it is an attempt to deal with a crucial element of culture, that, in my mind, we have failed to understand well. Can we start afresh?

When we talk of Sooninke culture, what are we talking about? What are the elements of Sooninke culture? Can we isolate the individual components of this particular culture that we call Sooninke culture? Nas introduced a very important topic for all to consider (it is quoted above) and I am very glad that my good Brothers Idipro, Cisse, Nas, Lameno, et al... are all participating diligently and intelligently.

Now, can we approach this vital subject from a fresh angle, share our understanding of what Sooninke culture actually is. From this we can proceed.

I am particularly interested in this subject because I am a Diaspora Sooninke. By that I mean, I have never spent but a few days in a Sooninke town or village. I grew up in a Mandingo town called Kombo Gunjuru, went to boarding school in a Mandingo town, left the Gambia shortly before my 24th birthday. Since then I have been all over Europe from Espana to Prague and then to the USA. You are the largest body of Sooninko that I have the honor of discussing this subject with ever in my life. It is crucial that we actually understood what this Sooninke culture is. Let us shed some brilliant lights on it to help us all to see it and understand it.

As I embarked on the study of culture, I have always tried to flesh out its components and see what the aggregate feels live and how well it enables its adherents to live vibrantly, sanely, healthily, and lovingly as well. Culture, like Life, is a rather difficult subject to define. You may be able to describe it very well, however, it often defies an accurate, all encompassing definition. It is like the question "what is Life?".

I shall here attempt to list some of the components of culture to start with.

I regard language as a component of culture.
I regard religion as a component of culture.
I regard how we dress as a component of culture.
I regard the foods we eat, how we grow them, how we process them, and how we cook them as components of culture.
I regard the whole field of courtship, marriage, and family as components of culture.
I regard what kinds of sports we develop and engage in as components of culture.
I regard architecture and the furnishings as components of culture.
I regard music and dancing as components of culture.
I regard the whole educational process as a component of culture.
I regard how we approach and apprehend reality as components of culture in so far as they program the human mind.
In short, how we see Life and how we live it, how we relate to each other, and the various modes of securing a livelihood, are all generally, culturally defined.
I regard the way the human mind is conditioned as a component of culture.
The socio-politico-economic processes are all largely defined by culture.

We can add as much as comes to mind and then try to flesh out how these components have been developed to see how the Sooninko developed their culture. When we all have a good sense of what Sooninke culture is, then, we can figure out how to live it or how to improve it and then live it at the same time.

I am not a westerner bashing Islam. I have spent many decades studying religion from the most ancient of recorded time to the present. I do have a deep understanding of the role of religion in human Life and how it conditions the human mind. Brothers all, never take my critique of organized religion to mean that I hate Islam or hate religion. It is the vital essence of Social Life and it is our responsibility to thoroughly understand religion so that we can know when it is failing us or when we are failing it and then determine the reasons why.

Can we start afresh, in good spirits, a healthy dose of humor, and in lovely care for each other in order that we may understand the subject matter-SOONINKE CULTURE.

Idipro, thanks for your loving critiques. I hope you will continue to help out in this dialogue.

Good night all.

P/S: Brother Idipro, this Sooinike does not eat meat or fish or escargot. As a vegetarian, he does eat a lot of Molle for his proteins. He happens to do well with it. Laugh!!! Your points and remarks are all well taken and in love. Thanks. Let us go step by step and see where the dialogue takes us. We can far when we start near!!!

[nas]

Islam ( soumission a dieu ) Beaucoup de gens on cet fausse idée que l'islam est une nouvelle religion crée il y a 1400 ans par le prophète Mohamed mais en faite l'islam est présent depuis que l'homme a foulé le pied sur cet terre et le prophète Mohamed ( paix et bénédiction soie sur lui ) et le dernier messager .
A la mort de jésus ( Issa ) les apôtre de celui-ci était pourchasser par ce qu’on appelait les chrétiens a leur tête le dénommer st Paul qui est a l'origine de la trinité ( dieu est trois , le père le fils et le saint esprit ) soi disant en route vers damacus pour tenté de trouvé les apôtre de jésus . Il aurait eu une vision de jésus qui lui aurai ordonnée de prêcher une nouvelle version du message de jésus ce qui donna comme résultat la trinité cet a partir de la que la religion fut infiltré avec cet immense mensonge qui perdure encore .Juste pour dire que si le prophète Issa serai parmi nous ici et qu'on lui demande quel est sa religion il répondrai la soumission a dieu et en arabe cela veut dire islam ( cet un exemple donner par un imam décédé aujourd'hui mais très connu ) .Mettons fin aux idées reçu qui dise que touts les arabes sont musulmans ce qui est totalement faux il y a des arabes juifs , chrétiens et surtout chose a savoir 80% des musulmans ne sont pas arabes .

Pour revenir a nos moutons l'islam a permis a l'empire du Ghana un réveil a la fois morale et intellectuel. Une société matriarcale ou matrilinéaire dont la femme avait le pouvoir absolue une absurdité abolie grâce a l'islam . L'empire ne pactisait il pas avec un djinn a tètes de serpent qui réclamait comme sacrifice une jeunes vierge ,coupé fut ses nombreuse têtes par un courageux guerrier qui souhaitait sauver sa princesse .

L'islam est un guide pour les hommes ceux qui nous façonne nous forge et nous donne un sens a la vie grâce a des valeurs universel sens islam les hommes continuerais a enstérée leur enfants de sexe féminin ou alors de prendre comme dieu une idole ou un soi disant esprit comme l’en sienne empire du Ghana partisan de l'animisme . L'islam est a l'origine de toute civilisation de toute culture l'essence de toute chose jusqu’à' la fin du monde.

Mais aujourd'hui l'empire et sa descendance net plus car plus de transmission de valeur ou de comportement honorable . Le père et la mère ce levant tôt le matin pour pouvoir subvenir au besoin de leur famille un dur labeur une lourde besogne arriver le soir essoufflé fatiguer l'enfant arrogant et sens aucune moralité entre dans cet cuisine et dit a voie haute mère il n'y a rien a manger oh mère dépêche toi donc car j'ai faim et le père honteux ne peut que baisser la tète devenus esclave de leurs enfants devenu esclave de leur propre descendance.
De si bon matin la porte frisonne de plusieurs coup la police surgis menoté ligoter , les femmes et les hommes sont une nouvelle fois humilier leur descendance sont arrêter coupable d'un délie .
Des jeunes femmes a moitie dénudé voulant ressemblé a leurs idole peut être que ses idole ne sont sens fois ni loi mais malgré cela elle suive leur chemin .Plus aucun respect pour nous même nous sommes devenu pire que les occidentaux .

Le seul et unique discours du chef de famille est que la honte ma toucher le déshonore ma ébranler ma tombe sera ce pays étranger car trop honteux de rentré dans mon pays d'origine avec une descendance décimer .

[idipro]

Islam ( soumission a dieu ) Beaucoup de gens on cet fausse idée que l'islam est une nouvelle religion crée il y a 1400 ans par le prophète Mohamed mais en faite l'islam est présent depuis que l'homme a foulé le pied sur cet terre et le prophète Mohamed ( paix et bénédiction soie sur lui ) et le dernier messager .
A la mort de jésus ( Issa ) les apôtre de celui-ci était pourchasser par ce qu’on appelait les chrétiens a leur tête le dénommer st Paul qui est a l'origine de la trinité ( dieu est trois , le père le fils et le saint esprit ) soi disant en route vers damacus pour tenté de trouvé les apôtre de jésus . Il aurait eu une vision de jésus qui lui aurai ordonnée de prêcher une nouvelle version du message de jésus ce qui donna comme résultat la trinité cet a partir de la que la religion fut infiltré avec cet immense mensonge qui perdure encore .Juste pour dire que si le prophète Issa serai parmi nous ici et qu'on lui demande quel est sa religion il répondrai la soumission a dieu et en arabe cela veut dire islam ( cet un exemple donner par un imam décédé aujourd'hui mais très connu )

Pour revenir a nos moutons l'islam a permis a l'empire du Ghana un réveil a la fois morale et intellectuel. Une société matriarcale ou matrilinéaire dont la femme avait le pouvoir absolue une absurdité abolie grâce a l'islam . L'empire ne pactisait il pas avec un djinn a tètes de serpent qui réclamait comme sacrifice une jeunes vierge ,coupé fut ses nombreuse têtes par un courageux guerrier qui souhaitait sauver sa princesse .

L'islam est un guide pour les hommes ceux qui nous façonne nous forge et nous donne un sens a la vie grâce a des valeurs universel sens islam les hommes continuerais a enstérée leur enfants de sexe féminin ou alors de prendre comme dieu une idole ou un soi disant esprit comme l’en sienne empire du Ghana partisan de l'animisme .

Je suis tout a fait d'accord avec toi.
SadioKumba, please read above and understand it.

[B]
Mais aujourd'hui l'empire et sa descendance net plus car plus de transmission de valeur ou de comportement honorable . Le père et la mère ce levant tôt le matin pour pouvoir subvenir au besoin de leur famille un dur labeur une lourde besogne arriver le soir essoufflé fatiguer l'enfant arrogant et sens aucune moralité entre dans cet cuisine et dit a voie haute mère il n'y a rien a manger oh mère dépêche toi donc car j'ai faim et le père honteux ne peut que baisser la tète devenus esclave de leurs enfants devenu esclave de leur propre descendance.

Le seul et unique discours du chef de famille est que la honte ma toucher le déshonore ma ébranler ma tombe sera ce pays étranger car trop honteux de rentré dans mon pays d'origine avec une descendance décimer .

Le pere et la mere se sont toujours lever tot depuis toujours NAS, la mere qui prepare le sombi tot le matin et le derrer aussi que les enfants emmenent avec eux au gounner. Le pere apres la priere du fajr se prepare pour aller aux champs. La faim a beau tuer les enfants ils n'iront jamais engueuler leur mere, en tout cas pour ce que je sais des bledards. Mais maintenant c'est a cause de l'europe que tu vois un gamin de rien du tout crier sur sa mere, et la plus part des peres ne disent rien. Moi non plus je ne comprends pas.
Peut etre que les enfants d'aujourdhui, ou dirais je certains enfants nes et grandi en France n'ont pas recu cette education a savoir que les parents sont plus precieux que l'or, que toute personne agee est a respecter... Mais j'ai l'impression que dans certaines familles soninkes en france, l'education europeenne prime plus que l'education a la soninke ou l'on fait comprendre a l'enfant sa place dans la societe, mais surtout sa place dans la famille.
C'est dommage de voire dans le metro ou dans le bus des enfants noirs, soninkes qui rigolent en utilisant des mots genre (fils de p... , ou encore ta dar..., ou ton dar..) contre eux meme. Moi je dis que c'est un manque d'education, et que c'est la faute des certains parents.

Wasalam